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Judge Dredd (1955) vs. Dredd (2012)

 
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thunda



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:19 am    Post subject: Judge Dredd (1955) vs. Dredd (2012) Reply with quote

Let me start by admitting neither movie did justice to the comic series, but there were some things I liked from both.

Lawgiver
I thought the Lawgiver from Judge Dredd was cool, especially the voice confirming ammunition type. Yes, I do realize how arkward that would be in a stealth situation but I still liked it. It also looked more futuristic, like the comics. The Dredd LG was okay but looked like a modern day Uzi or something. Having it explode if someone else tries to use it might be better than an electric shock but it could have also disabled Anderson if she were closer.


Lawmater
No contest, Judge Dredd's Lawmaster was way better.

Uniform
Again, Judge Dredd's was better if not practical. Dredd's may have been more realistic but what's the purpose of body armor if it can't stop bullets?

Mega City One
The first movie had a much larger budget so they could afford better special effects so it looked like the future. The newer one didn't look like it was in the future but it did do a better job of giving you the feel of what living in a "block" would be like.

Language
The first movie tries to use some of the made up words from the magazine once or twice in the beginning then stops while the second movie never tries, everyone speaks "American."

Levity
There's a thin line between humor and ridiculous and Judge Dredd crosses it after the first six minutes. Dredd manages to capture that dark humor from the comics/

Judges
Neither film did a decent job of portraying the competency, skill, training and dedication these individuals have or the respect they command. In the first I found it hard to believe the other Judges would turn against their best so quickly and in the second I found it strange that Dredd calls for help and has to wait a whole day until they arrive.

Antagonist
Rico was nice with his over the topness but Mama was total bada$$. I did like that ABC warrior too.

Sidekick
Rob Schneider turned it into a comedy. Judge Dredd is not supposed to be a comedy. No contest, Anderson.

Female Lead
The only thing I remember about Judge Hershey was her fighting a female scientist at the end. I didn't like how Anderson was portrayed (a mutant? Really?) but she was much better than Hershey.

Plot
The first one was too intricate for the casual fan who never heard of Dredd while the later one was a bit too simple. Could have used a few sub-plots but I still prefer the newer one.

Acting
You would think having Max von Sydow and Armand Assante would give you the edge in acting but when you add Stallone talking out the side of his mouth it's like putting a hippopotamus on a lifeboat. Overall the cast from Dredd did a better job.


Joe Dredd
Stallone does a great job for the first few minutes but once he removes his helmet he turns the flick into another of his action movies. I had to check to see where Karl Urban was born (New Zealand), no American actor would keep his face covered the entire movie. He did an outstanding job bringing Dredd's grimness to the screen. His voice was great as were his lower facial expressions. His acting is what put his movie above its predecessor.
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Futsie
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oo, interesting!
I'm a Judge Dredd fan, as you can probably tell since my username comes from that very comic!

I'm just gonna comment on a few of your comments...


thunda wrote:
Let me start by admitting neither movie did justice to the comic series, but there were some things I liked from both.


Yep, agreed...! The 1995 Judge Dredd movie had more nods to the comic strip, with the appearance of an ABC Warrior, Judges Rico, Hershey, Griffin, Fargo etc, a flying Lawmaster, Block War, The Angel Gang, the penal colony on Titan, uh, I mean Aspen(?), the Cursed Earth and the City Walls, and even Fergie (THAT was supposed to be Fergie?!?), but the story and characters themselves were more like stock action movie stuff...

Whereas I thought the new Dredd movie felt much more like the comic in general tone even if Dredd, Anderson, lawgivers and lawmasters were about the only things we'd recognise from it.



thunda wrote:
Lawgiver
I thought the Lawgiver from Judge Dredd was cool, especially the voice confirming ammunition type. Yes, I do realize how arkward that would be in a stealth situation but I still liked it. It also looked more futuristic, like the comics. The Dredd LG was okay but looked like a modern day Uzi or something. Having it explode if someone else tries to use it might be better than an electric shock but it could have also disabled Anderson if she were closer.


I thought the two Lawgivers looked fairly similar to each other, and neither looked like the one from the comic (I'm thinking of the 1970s-80s artwork one, with the half clock dial on top for selecting which type of ammo). I did prefer the JD 1995 one because they made more of a feature of the different types of ammunition and it seemed more high tech. I agree that the electric shock booby trap makes more sense, but the explosion made for a more dramatic effect on the unfortunate perp who tried to use it

I don't think either film showed my favourite Lawgiver ammo tho - the multiple rebound ricochet bullets or "dodgems". There's a great scene in one of the comics where a perp escapes into a lift/elevator, and Dredd rapid fires dodgems through the gap between the doors just as they close! Needless to say being trapped in a lift full of bullets bouncing around everywhere isn't a healthy place to be!





thunda wrote:
Lawmater
No contest, Judge Dredd's Lawmaster was way better.


Aha, now this one isn't so cut and dried for me... The JD 1995 Lawmaster certainly looks much more like the ones from the comics, which I read were originally designed as an exaggerated future version of the "CHiPs" and "Electra Glide in Blue" style of huge American police motorcycles covered in lights and bulky equipment. But I think that the Dredd 2012 bike was far more practical, being basically a normal motorbike with a few bits added on. It could perform like a real bike which meant we could have that great chase scene at the start of the movie, whereas the JD 1995 Lawmasters couldn't be ridden like that.

I have a book about the making of the JD 1995 movie, and it says the Lawmasters were actually quite small scooters or mopeds that were dressed up in a Lawmaster shell. If you watch the few scenes in the 1995 film where Lawmasters are being ridden along, you can see that even at low speed they skip and bounce around quite a bit, probably due to the moped suspension having to be set up very hard to cope with all the weight of the Lawmaster "costume", so I don't think they could have been ridden safely at more than a few miles per hour... Maybe that's why the chase scene later on was done with the flying Lawmasters, or at least why we didn't get a road chase.

Maybe I just noticed this stuff coz I ride a motorbike myself, but I found it hard to believe in the 1995 Lawmaster scooters with their bouncy ride quality! But with the Dredd 2012 movie I thought "woo, cool bike!"

Now if they'd made something that looked like the comics version of the Lawmaster out of a big Harley Electra Glide or a Honda Gold Wing that could still perform like a real bike, THAT I would go for





thunda wrote:
Uniform
Again, Judge Dredd's was better if not practical. Dredd's may have been more realistic but what's the purpose of body armor if it can't stop bullets?


Yes, I think the JD 1995 uniform was better . That was a really clever design, the way the shoulder pad, eagle and armour were all part of a unit that easily clipped on and off Yes Smiley . And plus it had the iconic eagle shoulder emblem from the comic . The only drawback was it looked a bit restrictive - there's a scene where Stallone has his gun arm raised and it seems to bunch up the shoulder piece against his head rather awkwardly.

I think the Dredd 2012 outfit was more in keeping with the tone of that film tho, and I don't think the Judge uniforms had any armour at all in the comic. The Dredd 2012 uniform was more like motorcycle clothing for protection against crashes rather than against bullets I guess? I liked the little touch of having gouges on Dredd's helmet, as if Justice Dept couldn't or wouldn't replace equipment unless really necessary. Or maybe Dredd didn't want a new helmet because he's "not one of your decorative staff officers"?




thunda wrote:
Mega City One
The first movie had a much larger budget so they could afford better special effects so it looked like the future. The newer one didn't look like it was in the future but it did do a better job of giving you the feel of what living in a "block" would be like.


Yes, much more futuristic city and vehicles in the first film, but I liked the vision of the city in Dredd 2012 with its few "mega-blocks" rising out of the old city and its old vehicles. Perhaps just dictated by budget, but I think I actually preferred it. Maybe CGI technology has improved enough now that the first film's futuristic city could be done better tho...




thunda wrote:
Language
The first movie tries to use some of the made up words from the magazine once or twice in the beginning then stops while the second movie never tries, everyone speaks "American."


Heh, that never occurred to me.. Don't why they didn't use some of that - a lot of the words' meanings are fairly clear especially when used in context.


thunda wrote:
Levity
There's a thin line between humor and ridiculous and Judge Dredd crosses it after the first six minutes. Dredd manages to capture that dark humor from the comics/


Yerssss, there's always humour in the comics version, but I don't think it's ever "zany"
Mind you, there were a few moments from the 1995 movie that worked for me, like when Dredd and Fergie are trying to get through that waste chute incinerator thing...

Dredd: There is a way in. Six years ago, two refugees figured it out. It's a vent to the city's incinerator. There's a burst twice a minute. That means somebody could run through that tube and have 30 seconds before it flames again.
Fergie: And these, these refugees, they made it through, right?
Dredd: Actually, they were roasted. But the theory's sound.



thunda wrote:
Judges
Neither film did a decent job of portraying the competency, skill, training and dedication these individuals have or the respect they command. In the first I found it hard to believe the other Judges would turn against their best so quickly and in the second I found it strange that Dredd calls for help and has to wait a whole day until they arrive.


Yep, I suppose neither film could find the time to get bogged down in filling in all the background about the Judges. Mind you, I'm pretty sure a lot of those details weren't filled in during the early episodes of the comics, but just came along later.

In the 1995 film I supposed everyone was willing to believe Dredd was a murderer because his brother Rico had already turned out to be a bad'un, and the DNA evidence was incontrovertible... But then if they knew about his brother Rico and knew there had been other cloning programmes, shouldn't they have been a bit more cautious about trusting DNA evidence? And if they didn't know Rico was Dredd's clone brother, then Rico's criminal nature shouldn't reflect on Dredd, errrrm

In the second movie, I could believe that backup would take so long to arrive because it was hinted that the Judges were underfunded and spread rather thin across the city - Dredd comments to Anderson that they can only tackle a very small percentage of reported crimes, and the security guard at Peach Trees block comments how rare it is to have a Judge turn up.



thunda wrote:
Antagonist
Rico was nice with his over the topness but Mama was total bada$$. I did like that ABC warrior too.

Rico was good but a bit of a typical modern moustache twirler... But Ma-Ma was totally psycho, and the more we found out about her the worse she got
Anderson's reveal about Ma-Ma's assistant's artificial eyes was particularly chilling I thought



thunda wrote:
Sidekick
Rob Schneider turned it into a comedy. Judge Dredd is not supposed to be a comedy. No contest, Anderson.


Yep!


thunda wrote:
Female Lead
The only thing I remember about Judge Hershey was her fighting a female scientist at the end. I didn't like how Anderson was portrayed (a mutant? Really?) but she was much better than Hershey.


Yeah, Hershey was some kind of love interest character telling Dredd to get more in touch with his feelings - what?! Although they did make her Dredd's defence counsel in the film and she also did a bit of detective work later to discover how he'd been framed.

I quite liked the idea of Anderson's psi ability being due to her being a mutant - I'm not sure if the Dredd 2012 film mentions the legal status of mutants, but since in the comics they're illegal under a form of Mega City One apartheid, I thought it would be an interesting bit of Justice Dept hypocrisy if they allowed mutations that were of benefit to them. Plus the hypocrisy that they were bending their own rules by giving Anderson a second chance when she'd already failed her assessment before.


thunda wrote:
Plot
The first one was too intricate for the casual fan who never heard of Dredd while the later one was a bit too simple. Could have used a few sub-plots but I still prefer the newer one.


I think the 1995 film has an ok plot but it's whisked by a bit too quickly to fit in around all the set piece scenes that seemed more important to the movie makers. So I also prefer the newer one because even though it's got less of a plot, what it has got holds together more coherently.



thunda wrote:
Acting
You would think having Max von Sydow and Armand Assante would give you the edge in acting but when you add Stallone talking out the side of his mouth it's like putting a hippopotamus on a lifeboat. Overall the cast from Dredd did a better job.


Ah am - duh LUH!
(that's someone's signature on the 2000AD discussion forum, where I pinched it from )

Max Von Sydow was very good I thought. He made the story feel much more important in all his scenes... Hmmm, so it occurs to me that maybe one of the problems with the 1995 movie is that all the actors seemed to be pulling in different directions. Stallone was playing an action movie hero complete with dubious catchphrases, Von Sydow was playing a dramatic character in an epic story, Diane Lane was giving a fairly sincere performance as a lawyer/detective, Assante was hamming it up as an over the top villain and Rob Schneider was er... Rob Schneider ..

At least in Dredd 2012 everyone was on the same page...



thunda wrote:
Joe Dredd
Stallone does a great job for the first few minutes but once he removes his helmet he turns the flick into another of his action movies. I had to check to see where Karl Urban was born (New Zealand), no American actor would keep his face covered the entire movie. He did an outstanding job bringing Dredd's grimness to the screen. His voice was great as were his lower facial expressions. His acting is what put his movie above its predecessor.


Yes, I think Karl Urban really nailed it, and didn't impose any kind of movie star persona on the film. There was a bit of Clint Eastwood's "The man with no name" about his performance, which makes sense because Dredd was originally based partly on those sort of Eastwood characters, or at least so I read in one of those "origins of Judge Dredd" articles. If Urban had a catchphrase at all, to me it was when he just said one word - "Yeah" - after his confrontation with Ma-Ma

The 1995 Judge Dredd film was very different as it dealt with Dredd's feelings... Still, I thought that was interesting as they took the detachment of the character and gave reasons for it and then showed how he related to other important people in his life like Hershey, or his clone brother Rico and clone father Fargo. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to do stuff like that in a movie or any other interpretation... And the movies are an interpretation, not canon as I see it. Even in the comics they've had Dredd starting to question his values and grow out of his training in some ways...

I watched Red Letter Media's "Half in the bag" review of Dredd 2012 the other day and they mentioned the scene where Dredd first sees Anderson and she's asked to scan him as a test. She says she senses control, but there's something else, something behind the control - and then the examining Judge interrupts with something along the lines of "yes, thankyou, that will do"
The Red Letter Media guys reckoned this was a message to the audience to say that this film is NOT going to go in the direction of getting all into Dredd's feelings.


Anyway, that's enough waffling from me, and this post has turned out far longer than I thought it would
I like the 1995 Judge Dredd film and I've seen it 3 or 4 times, but I see it as more of an action movie with some Judge Dredd stuff in it. I defintely prefer the 2012 Dredd movie which has all the intensity and dark humour that I associate with the comic. It felt more like Dredd rather than a fanfic style spinoff of Dredd.

Now that they've introduced the characters and some of the setting, let's hope they get the money to make a sequel
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thunda



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Futsie wrote:
Oo, interesting!
I'm a Judge Dredd fan, as you can probably tell since my username comes from that very comic!




thunda wrote:
Judges
Neither film did a decent job of portraying the competency, skill, training and dedication these individuals have or the respect they command. In the first I found it hard to believe the other Judges would turn against their best so quickly and in the second I found it strange that Dredd calls for help and has to wait a whole day until they arrive.


Yep, I suppose neither film could find the time to get bogged down in filling in all the background about the Judges. Mind you, I'm pretty sure a lot of those details weren't filled in during the early episodes of the comics, but just came along later.

In the 1995 film I supposed everyone was willing to believe Dredd was a murderer because his brother Rico had already turned out to be a bad'un, and the DNA evidence was incontrovertible... But then if they knew about his brother Rico and knew there had been other cloning programmes, shouldn't they have been a bit more cautious about trusting DNA evidence? And if they didn't know Rico was Dredd's clone brother, then Rico's criminal nature shouldn't reflect on Dredd, errrrm

In the second movie, I could believe that backup would take so long to arrive because it was hinted that the Judges were underfunded and spread rather thin across the city - Dredd comments to Anderson that they can only tackle a very small percentage of reported crimes, and the security guard at Peach Trees block comments how rare it is to have a Judge turn up.


I think we agree on just about everything, but I have a few questions for you.
In the first movie did they mean that both Rico and Joe had the same exact DNA? Is that possible? Wouldn't they look the same?
Also in the first movie, would a Judge actually waste time arguimg with a citizen about moving his car? In the comics they're not only respected, they're feared. They say 'jump' you ask 'how high?'
In the second I do understand how overloaded they were but this is their best Judge. And if they were so short-handed how did they manage to put together what looked like a small army the next day?

That's it for now.
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thunda



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some typical Judge Dredd humor from the comics:

Dredd : That's quite a haul and it's not even nine o'clock.
Perp: I'm an early riser.
Dredd: Convenient. You can be in a cube by noon. Two years.


Some humor from the movie Dredd after he killed 1 of 4 bad judges.

Dredd: What's the price of a Judge these days?
Lex: Million. Split four ways.
Dredd: Three ways now.
Lex: Suits me.
(Dredd kills another one)
Lex: Mother&@#$er!!!
Dredd: Two way split.

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Last edited by thunda on Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Futsie
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thunda wrote:

I think we agree on just about everything, but I have a few questions for you.
In the first movie did they mean that both Rico and Joe had the same exact DNA? Is that possible? Wouldn't they look the same?



Ok, I'm getting around to answering this almost a year later!

I think in the comics, Joe and Rico were both clones of the venerable Judge Fargo and it was generally Justice Dept policy to clone successful Judges... In later comics episodes there is another clone called "Kraken" who is almost used as a replacement to cover up Dredd's possible retirement, so presumably they are supposed to look alike (apart from Kraken being younger).

So um, yeah, in the 1995 movie I think they took the idea of Joe and Rico being clones and therefore having the same DNA, so I would have thought they should have looked the same ... but I guess for dramatic reasons or whatever they thought it would work better to have a different actor as the antagonist..?

In the comics Rico had been to the penal colony on Titan (not in Aspen!) and had been cybernetically adapted to survive there so he looked pretty different... so they could have used that to cover up facial differences between the actors...



https://p.dreamwidth.org/0f2386d892b9/-/ic.pics.livejournal.com/nomadicwriter/859310/98295/original.jpg


thunda wrote:

Also in the first movie, would a Judge actually waste time arguimg with a citizen about moving his car? In the comics they're not only respected, they're feared. They say 'jump' you ask 'how high?'


True..! I think if someone tried arguing with Dredd in the comics like that, he'd also charge them with "wasting Justice Dept time" or something



thunda wrote:

In the second I do understand how overloaded they were but this is their best Judge. And if they were so short-handed how did they manage to put together what looked like a small army the next day?

That's it for now.


Hmmm, yeah, dunno.... maybe when it became a siege/hostage situation with 2 Judges in danger it became a much higher priority case? Or perhaps the corrupt Judges who were working for Ma-Ma had a hand in the decision?


.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Futsie wrote:

Ok, I'm getting around to answering this almost a year later!


Better late than never, Futsie!


Futsie wrote:

In the comics Rico had been to the penal colony on Titan (not in Aspen!) and had been cybernetically adapted to survive there so he looked pretty different... so they could have used that to cover up facial differences between the actors...




I suppose surgery might explain the difference, although it seems like in the comics he turned out like a monster while in the movie he looked better than his twin.





--------------------------------------------------------------

Some more comparisons:

Secondary Antagonists
So the way I see it we have Judge Griffin, ABC warrior, and Dr. Ilsa Hayden from Judge Dreedd vs. Kay, Caleb and Judge Lex from Dredd. This one is tough. Judge Griffin was the typical super-villain, Dr. Hayden was there so Hershey could fight and the robot was the only cool one. Kay was a good street level adversary, Caleb was...the guy with the mustache, beard and leather jacket, and Lex was like a Rico who never got caught. Iím calling this one a draw.




Chief Judge
Judge Fargo vs. Chief Judge. Itís close but I canít go against Max von Sydow. Judge Fargo(Judge Dredd) seemed closer to how a Chief Judge should be.


Verbal Confrontation
Judge Dredd: I should have put you down personally.
Rico: You know Iíve never understood that. Why did you judge me?
Judge Dredd: You killed innocent people.
Rico: A means to an end.
Judge Dredd: You started a massacre!
Rico: I began a revolution!
Judge Dredd: YOU BETRAYED THE LAW!
Rico: Lawwwwww!

vs.

Ma Ma: Youíre a piece of work, Dredd..and so am I. You think I didnít know Iíd get busted someday? It goes with the territory. This entire level is rigged with enough high explosives to take out the top fifty stories. If they go, the rest go too. Like the jewery? Itís a transmitter synched to my heartbeat. My heart stops beating, the building blows. Everyone in it, ash. You got no way out Judge. Put your gun down. Do you know how many people live in this block?
Dredd: This isnít a negotiation. The sentence.. is death.

This is another close one. While Dreddís dialogue is closer to the comic, itís hard not to appreciate Armand Assanteís performance. A tie.
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